- Castiel was taught by the angels to lie, or at least swerve around the truth. They lied about the breaking of the seals.
- Castiel CHOSE to disobey. He wasn’t taught to. He just did.
- Castiel didn’t need Dean to tell him what was right and wrong. That episode where they’re sitting in the park? ‘I have questions… I have doubts.’
- It was all an accident, yeah. It was a mistake, and Cas made the mess. Which is why I stand behind Dean when he yells at Cas ‘clean up your messes’. Because it was Cas who let the leviathans loose, but Dean and Sam who are fighting them. It’s not their job.
- I’m not having a go at Cas, it’s just… Dean said it would fuck up - that taking in all those souls from Purgatory would be a bad move - but Cas ignored him. So yeah, Cas was thinking about saving the world and Heaven, but Dean wanted them to find another way to do it. Cas didn’t.
Also, I know some of us like to pretend S7 didn’t exist, but really?
‘I detect a note of forgiveness’
‘Yeah well, we’re probably gonna die tomorrow’
‘We didn’t part friends, Dean’
‘I’d rather have you. Cursed or not’
If this isn’t Dean’s way of saying ‘I forgive you’, I don’t know what is.
I agree. Except for ONE thing.
When people are explaining Cas’ blame in the whole Purgatory mess (and yes, he IS to blame) they always say - Dean told him it was a bad idea and he didn’t listen. Cas HIMSELF says this in Reading is Fundamental - they begged him not to…
And THAT’S a part I always think people are simplifying.
Because yes, Dean told him not to. But he told him BADLY. His whole ‘I’m telling you not to, just cos’ was a BAD way to go about things. He was not listening to Castiel’s side, he was not trying to UNDERSTAND why Castiel had made the choices he had (‘blah blah Raphael, right?’). So when Castiel ‘didn’t listen to him,’ it really wasn’t as simple as him choosing to ignore Dean’s warning. Because Dean didn’t lay it out like that. He didn’t say, don’t do this because of all these very valid and compelling reasons not to. He said ‘don’t do this because I say so and I know best!’ So Cas wasn’t ignoring a warning, he was ignoring a man being a dick towards him. It is more complicated than Dean saying opening Purgatory would be bad and Cas not listening.
Because what was Cas listening to? A hypocrite telling him he was wrong and a betrayer and sinful demon dealer? Would YOU listen? Especially when you’ve thought long and hard about what you’re doing and decided it is for the best?
And now I have the opposite problem to the original poster, cos it sounds like I’m having a go at Dean, when I’m not! I get 100% that Dean struggles with words. That by trying not to ‘logic’ Cas in that scene Dean was trying his hardest to be a good friend, to be a brother to Cas. He wasn’t trying to sound mean or judgmental. It’s just that his pain at Castiel’s perceived betrayal and his lack of eloquence made it sound that way. I don’t BLAME Dean for that. He tried. It’s FRUSTRATING for me that he got it wrong, that Cas didn’t understand. But it’s not like Cas didn’t have GOOD REASON not to listen to Dean, is what I’m saying.
If you want to lay blame on Cas for not listening to warnings about Purgatory it is BALTHAZAR’S warning you want to use as an example. Because when Cas and Bal talk about opening Purgatory Balthazar very calmly and very clearly points out the dangers - the power of the souls could be too much for Cas, he could explode and take a sizable amount of the world with him. Bal is NOT being arrogant. He has been nothing but supportive of Cas up until now. He is someone Cas has EVERY REASON to listen to. So when he ignores Balthazar’s warning - that IS as simple as Cas ignoring a warning, that is Castiel being over confident, that is hubris, that is tragedy.
/end my two cents of this discussion :)
(addition - everything about season 7 outlined above is spot on for me <3)
Ah, I actually agree 100% ^
Everything about this is right - Dean never states clearly the dangers, and all Cas is probably seeing is Dean being Dean. I like what you said even more so, because I totally forgot about what Balthazar said and it proves that Castiel was beyond rational thinking.
Argh, I’m so conflicted though. Because if I was in Cas’s position, I would have done the same. I would have done anything if it would have meant saving the world or stopping Raphael. I would ignore anything anyone told me if I thought that my plan would stop it all. So I sympathise for Cas, but I also think that it’s unfair for people to blame Dean for everything. Dean said something along the lines of:
‘Damnit, Cas, we can fix this!’
‘I’m not gonna logic you. I’m saying: don’t, just cos. I’m asking you not to.’
‘You and Bobby are the closest thing I have to family. So when I ask you not to do something, you gotta trust me’
‘Why else would you keep this a secret? Unless you knew it was wrong’
Sam says ‘Protecting us how? By opening a hole into monster land?’
Bobby says ‘One drop got through and it was Eve, and you want to break down the entire dam?’
It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that there are major risks to Cas’s plan, and Cas gets told them and goes along with it anyway. But still, Dean’s being vague. I reckon if Dean had actually stated what could go wrong, Cas might’ve had second thoughts.
Another thing I noticed: Cas says to Dean ‘you taught me freedom and free will’. I don’t believe this is true, because Cas had doubts before Dean started to push him. Dean just shoved Cas off of the edge and finally got him to act on his feelings. And it almost sounds like Cas is trying to blame Dean for his actions, by saying it while they’re discussing Cas’s betrayal. It was a bad placement of a sentence, I have to admit. Because if I was Dean, I’d end up thinking that it was my fault that Cas thought it was okay to do all of that crap.
I think he said it because he was scrambling for ways to get Dean off his back. He was picking up threads of things he could use against Dean to get him to surrender - which again, I would do too. I actually do that when I’m arguing with someone, so heh.
But you know, Dean’s forgiven Cas now - I hope - so it’s all good.
if I was in Cas’s position, I would have done the same. I would have done anything if it would have meant saving the world or stopping Raphael. I would ignore anything anyone told me if I thought that my plan would stop it all.
Same. But then I also feel like if I was in DEAN’S position I probably would have acted like him too and failed to make myself and my thoughts clear :p I’m pretty repressed when it comes to my emotions and don’t like talking about them, much like Dean, so… yeah. The curse of seeing both sides of something!
You make fair points that everyone said valid things about the problems of opening Purgatory and how it let out Eve etc. But the problem was they said it while keeping Cas trapped in a circle of fire. Making him immediately scared and defensive, so, again, I see Cas’ POV and get why he didn’t listen. What they were saying was an attack to him, not a discussion.
Like you say, I think it was up to Dean to state the problems when they were having their one-on-one discussion. Because of everyone involved, DEAN is the one Cas WOULD LISTEN to. Because it’s DEAN he is trying to save the world for. But Dean, unfortunately (because it is simply unfortunate, not deliberate). failed to get through to him.
Cas says to Dean ‘you taught me freedom and free will’. I don’t believe this is true
Doesn’t he say something more like ‘you taught me freedom and free will are something worth fighting for’? So it was more Dean made Cas believe in the concepts, as oppose to Dean teaching them to him. Because yes, Cas clearly knows about free will and has experienced it himself before he chooses to oppose Heaven. Agreed.
it almost sounds like Cas is trying to blame Dean for his actions, by saying it while they’re discussing Cas’s betrayal. It was a bad placement of a sentence, I have to admit. Because if I was Dean, I’d end up thinking that it was my fault that Cas thought it was okay to do all of that crap.
Yes. This is another example of them communicating badly. I don’t think Cas IS trying to blame Dean. He’s just trying to explain WHY he’s doing what he’s doing, no blame, just explanation - that he thought it was something Dean would agree with, because he’s fighting for the same thing they fought against Lucifer for and why doesn’t Dean see that, that they want the same thing? But what Dean hears is - shit, Cas is doing this because I made him think it? he’s doing this terrible thing because of me? no, shit, I can’t handle that, that this is on me, that I’ve ruined this one perfect thing in my life, fuck, no, I’ve got to make him see he’s WRONG. Cue Dean being too forceful in his ‘don’t do this!’ spiel.
Oh boys *shakes head*
You better use your time together in Purgatory to figure each other out better now :p
I have nothing else to say. It has all been said. <3
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